An officer in Agency For Assessment and Application of Technology (BPPT) told Antara they have conduct the development for the newly Indonesian genuine made armoured combat tracked vehicle. They will made a reverse engineering for the vital component the Indonesian industry still don’t capable to produce such as gear transfercase. Do we really need a new self made tank?
PT Pindad (Army Industrial Company) made their first debut developed 100 wheeled armoured personnel carrier for Indonesian Armed Forces. Is it time for Pindad to the next level, to build a tracked fighting vehicle or maybe a battle tank? Pindad has involved in reparation program of Scorpion tank and they made some parts of it such as track rubber shoe and link. We don’t argue the capabilities of Indonesian strategic industries to build such a thing. But what kind of tank we need to build?
Indonesian army always operate the light tank weighing not more than 20 tones due to the limitation of our road infrastructure and the nature of Indonesian wet soil. TNI still operates AMX-13 and Scorpions, while Marine Corps rely on the old Sovyet era, the amphibious PT-76. They had acquire the more modern BMP-2 from Ukraine and still waiting for the delivery of 20 BMP-3F from Russia.
We don’t need to build a large 40 tones main battle tank (MBT) just because Malaysia, our nearest neighbour, had a division of PT-90, a copy of Russian T-72, bought from Poland. Malaysia deployed their main battle tank in Johor Bahru, a large industrial district covered with large highway and pavement that can sustain the vehicle monstrous weight.
Johor Bahru face directly to Singapore, former part of Malaya that declare independence in 9 August 1965. Theo Sjafei, former Army general joined the PDIP party said, Singapore has rapid action force capable to invade the whole Johor State within a week. It is the strong point to conquer the whole Malaya. Main battle tank likes PT-90 indeed being prepared to deter threat from Singapore.
Indonesia doesn’t face those kind of threat. The only possible land invasion could be from Malaysia’s North Borneo, Sabah and Serawak States. But they must cope with the Kalimantan’s dense forest and swamp, an environment not suitable for a main battle tank. The other land border is in Papua with the worse condition of mountainous terrain and the thickest tropical jungle.
Most of Indonesian terrain does not support the concept of main battle tank. Even the light tank still can only operates on the normal road if they don’t want to be stuck in the paddy field’s mud or swamp. Indonesian Army doesn’t need full scale MBT but it needs a special lightweight tank to sustain such MBT role, engaging any enemy’s MBT threat in the jungle, swamp, paddy fields or in the middle of palm plantation around Sumatera and Kalimantan island.
Alvis Scorpions seems an ideal tank for Indonesian tropical landscape. But its aluminum body cannot stand against armour piercing ammo from a heavy machinegun. It better serve as support gun platform, instead for the real frontline combat.
Before Scorpions, Indonesian Army rely on French AMX-13 light tank, weighing only 15 tones. AMX-13 was a remarkable big guns platform capable to carry long barrel 90-105 mm cannon. Israeli Defense Force found the best role by deploying AMX-13 as a tank buster in 1960s Arab War. Put AMX-13 on the high ground and smash all enemy’s tank far below. Thanks to its long range guns capable to destroy any Russian main battle tank deployed by Arab countries at the time.
Despite the success story, AMX-13 still cannot play MBT role. The old AMX-13 can only play as support gun platform, the same role as Scorpion. Besides, Indonesian AMX-13 still inherit old gunnery technologies. It must stop to shot precisely. Singapore Army upgrade their AMX-13 but still they are not fit for first tier frontline battle tank.
There are so many type of light tank weighing between 20-25 tones that might capable to play as lightweight MBT. Cadillac Gage and Textron Marine and Land System developed Stingray light tank weighed only 20 tones. It can carry British L7 105 mm rifled guns. Stingray armour could stand against heavy machinegun rounds up to 14.5 mm calibre. It seems one of the best pltaform for Army light tank. Our neighbour Thailand acquired 100 Stingray in 1988-1990.
Indonesia also can learn how Argentine acquire their TAM light tank. Realizing their lack capability to build their own tank, Argentine government asked Germany firm, Thyssen-Henschel, for helping them develop a light MBT suitable for Argentine terrain. Avoid to build from the scratch, Thyysen-Henschel use Marder APC hull as basic platform. They use Leopard 1 MBT style turret. And the result is 30 tones tank mounted with 105 mm cannon.
good anlyzisss….
we will waiting the next military information and indonesia prespectif
thanx. You’re the first persons to give comment in my blog. Finally….
what i’ve been heard lately PINDAD on doing reseach 120mm gun on 20+ ton tracked chasis … with similar lay out with merkava………. interesting tought, it’s been on kaskus debatable whole day…. and we can’t get more news…. just beyond confidential ……… so keep on posting dude … the nation’s on the move
nice tank
Hey man just got across your blog. I’m quite impressed to know you also share my opinion on the real (armored fire support vehicle) requirements of our Armed Forces, considering the geographical setting of our countries. Oh by the way, I’m from the Philippines.
Mabuhay (Long Live) our Indonesian Army brothers!
Indonesia is really in need of more and better tanks in near future. Threats from Malaysia and Singapore are not to be taken lightly, as We see these two countries always underestimate Indonesia in a variety of ways. It is true that Indonesia has never engaged in real battles with them, but again their threats are real!!
@ hero
Explain why your country is in need of more tanks? Are you aware of your terrain and battlespace? How about your country’s military stance and doctrines?
The theadstarter eloquently explained the Indonesian Army’s armor requiement so I suggest you read on first before making a warmongering rant. peace.
Thanks for your response. It’s worth considering, but I am not a warmonger. I’m still convinced the threat from Malaysia and Singapore are real
One thing I forget in battle that we may not just rely on number. As I have played a game reminds me that general commanding skill, terrain, and the soldiers’ skills also become the main determinations in battle.
I always support PT.PINDAD in developing Indonesian Warfare.
@slayermoonlight, thank you and I hope our country can look forward for cooperative army training and simulation between them.
Thank’s, for your opinion on the MBT procurement plan by the army’s … maybe you could join us who also are discussing about it in http://www.kaskus.us/showthread.php?t=4653128
maybe your knowledge can make our discussion become more interesting…
Thanxk Adie… I already join kaskus military discussion. But I’m not so interested in arguing whether we need MBT or not. The discussion in kaskus is great, so many aspects we can recall. But I think the verdict in kaskus is obvious. The majority of kaskuser so wanted to have MBT because Malaysia already has one and Singapore just upgrade their Leo.
Now, it tend to be a ‘lottery’ to define which MBT is best for TNI between Leo, T90, Leclerc, etc…
Yes, we need ‘MBT’ striking force, but maybe not necessarily to deploy the so called MBT. From my article you can conclude that we can acquire lighter tank than normal MBT but has a similar capabilities of MBT.
@Madbud
Lighter tank can’t have similar capabilities as MBT, because they role in military operation is totaly different.
While MBT design to Fight another Tank head on, Light Tank such as Scorpion or AMX-13 designed as recon vehicle with capabilities to give support fire, if those “Light Tank” fight face to face with MBT, they wouldn’t survive.
Another Lighter Tank is called Tank Hunter, they have bigger guns to take on MBT, but make no mistake, they are also wouldn’t survive if they fight face to face with MBT, because unlike MBT which able to absorb enemy fire from various enemy fire (Chek on Challenger-2 Case in Iraq War), Tank Hunter didn’t have same capabilities, because they have much more thinner armor, and less protection system. The only change for Tank Hunter to take on MBT is by flanking them, but how we can flank enemy MBT if we didn’t have our own MBT to act as spear head ?
That is where MBT taking it’s role, not just as deterrent factor, but also act as spear head to attack enemy formation, create defensive column for APC/Troop Transport, and also act as defense troop Position against.
And don’t worries about soil or terrain in Indonesia, it is almost same like in Vietnam, and in Vietnam war both side (North Vietnam and US) using tank during their military campaign, and it work well, so i don’t think we would have same problem as well….
@Madbud
Lighter tank can’t have similar capabilities as MBT, because they role in military operation is totaly different.
While MBT design to Fight another Tank head on, Light Tank such as Scorpion or AMX-13 designed as recon vehicle with capabilities to give support fire, if those “Light Tank” fight face to face with MBT, they wouldn’t survive.
Another Lighter Tank is called Tank Hunter, they have bigger guns to take on MBT, but make no mistake, they are also wouldn’t survive if they fight face to face with MBT, because unlike MBT which able to absorb enemy fire from various enemy fire (Chek on Challenger-2 Case in Iraq War), Tank Hunter didn’t have same capabilities, because they have much more thinner armor, and less protection system. The only change for Tank Hunter to take on MBT is by flanking them, but how we can flank enemy MBT if we didn’t have our own MBT to act as spear head ?
That is where MBT taking it’s role, not just as deterrent factor, but also act as spear head to attack enemy formation, create defensive column for APC/Troop Transport, and also act as defense troop Position.
And don’t worries about soil or terrain in Indonesia, it is almost same like in Vietnam, and in Vietnam war both side (North Vietnam and US) using tank during their military campaign, and it work well, so i don’t think we would have problem as well
@Madbud,
May i know, what are the spesifications required for light tank that have similiar MBT capabilities? Armour? Gun? Fire power? or else? Coz in my opinion light tank can not have MBT capabilities without being MBT itself.
All armed forces in the world, no matter how ‘humble and modest’ they are, always think about threats. In other words hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Before millenium era, not many MBT in the hood..now, they are playing in front of our yard.
I’m not saying we should do ‘tit-for-tat’ but preparing-for-the-worst game plan needs MBT as the actor.
About Indonesia land characteristics for MBT, i believe you have found out from Formil 🙂
Regards.
Ps, Nice blog, mate! 🙂
hey fellas… i just want to give some opinion for future of indonesian armored division….. try to make
if we must have the special armored division the compotition is : for mbt i think the k2 from korea its the best for indonesian army….combining with russian BMP-3M… and anoa with cockeril 90mm canon…
or…. we build the tank hunter team with RPG-29,,mechem NTW 20mm sniper rifle,artic warfare 50cal sniper rifle,m249 light machine gun (for support fire) special forces to seek and destroy the pt91m and leo2 hehehehehe
Do you think that Maling’s PT-91 or Singa’s Leo are able to invade Indonesia? which part of Indonesia? and how will they be conveyed?
Let’s say they can invade Indonesia, what can they do then? If they decided to enter Indonesia, they have to be ready to become sitting ducks. The light tanks with higher agility will f**k them up easily.
In other side, there will be some anti tank units to seek and destroy invader’s MBTs. Instead of winning the war, they will be sold by maduranese merchants as wrecks.
u guys are terrible human,attack another country!!!
hello,
your article is very interesting. It seems to me that you have very good expertise in this field.
Is it possible that call you to discuss this topic with you.
I would be very grateful for your help. Please contact me in any case of questions or information.
Hello fellows,
First of all, wahyu’s comment is hilarious. I am sure Maduranese would prefer to sell satay to tank spare parts, lol.
I personally see no need to have MBTs in Indonesia. The terrains are too rugged and MBTs will not fare well on them. What we need is weapon platforms such as tank destroyers because the conditions are ideal for ambush operations and unsuitable for head-to-head firefights.
Singapore’s Leopard Tanks are second hand MBT. Same as who has several countries in the word, included several countries on Europe. I hope, Indonesia to taking its in a same way. Estimates price for second Leopard $ 2million. So 200 tanks is $400 million. Not very expensive for increasing trembled with fear effect.
I am Pizzaro (Spain product) light tank admirer. This armour model obviously become inspiration to making plant for Indonesia light tank.
Yes, I’m agree that Indonesia doesn’t need MBT with 60 tons heavy. Better to invest in BMP-3F for Marine since our country is consist thousand island. BMP-3F could be deployed in all of Indonesia islands through sea. I’m dreaming theat we have at least 200 BMP-3F to make our neightbours thinking several times before invade our homeland.
MBT-Leopard..No…, ?? So, what all of us still aimed that our army just allowed to have 1955 tanks made..?.
Or F16 fighter aircraft without air to air misile..? ?
Defence is not only weapons.
So.., let our army…our navy and air force assess his integrity….
In view of the land contours of Indonwsia, which is hilly and covered by dense trees and surrounded by paddy fields, I think what is really needed by the indonesian army to deal with any enemy battle tank threats (which is not likely to occur) is to have several squadrons of attack helicopters. These choppers willbe far more mobile compared to MBTs. Six to eight full squadrons of these choppers are enough to cover the whole country, and do not forget that choppers can also transport soldiers. So forget battle tanks and have a look at Mi-35 or Ka-50/52 !!
Peace be upon all Indonesian.
As a good Malaysian citizen, i sincerely would like to stressed that Malaysia never ever going to be a threat to either Indonesia or Singapore. War with either country bring no benefit or advantage whatsoever to Malaysia. That is why nearly all Malaysia weapon is defensive in nature instead or offensive.
Don’t worry too much of the PT-91M purchase recently as it was meant as a defense against neighbouring country MBT.
In respect to defense doctrine, one country always deem its neighbor as a threat. For me, I don’t think that Malaysian MBT (PT-(1) will pose any threat to Indo sovereignty because they will only deployed in peninsula region, not in dense jungle of northern Borneo. Deployment of PT-91 in Johor can only be translated as deterrence effect for Singapore although you can always say they are only for defense purposes. Yes, not any single country will say: I’m a future aggressor.
Recent reports showing Indonesia will be getting 100 Leopard II in near future. I’m sure Malaysian will have a mix feeling/anxiety about this latest development. Anyway it is a very good buy from Indonesia Goverment though i believe a deployment of the said MBT in Borneo will make Malaysia anxiety increases. 🙂
Nope, the Leo (2 A4= same as Singapore) will be deployed in Java as the infrastructure and environment can support for MBT. Indo Army may put Leo in Borneo but they will find many obstacles to make it perform well in the vast jungle and wetland. Mobilization will also be a huge problem as no rail road in Borneo for enabling MBT transport system to front line.
Yes., i really hope Indonesia leave Borneo alone without any heavy tanks deployment there. Otherwise Malaysia had to buy more heavy tanks for that same area and this will surely brings some sort of arm races that is not good for both countries.
Btw..some nice article from the link below that i agree in term which is Indonesia should upgrade its air force instead of buying heavy tanks.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/NA28Ae01.html
Airforce empowerment is important indeed, but Leo procurement is intended to replace the aging fleet of AMX-13 (built in 1963 procured in 1980s) . AMX-13s really need to go to museum ASAP.
The question is, what kind of tank Indo need? What is the tank deployment strategy Indo adhere? Does Indo really need to have capabilities to build some kind of homegrown (though foreign design) tank through ToT?
I don’t see Leo 2 is the answer.
the great nation is a nation who is willing to use their own languange ..so i decide to speak indonesian ..if you dont get it pliss translate in google translet ya.. well.. alangkah lebih baik jika semuanya bersatu..tak perlu menyombongkan kelebihan indonesia yg jauh lebih maju dalam pembuatan alat tempur secara mandiri..baik alat tempur udara dan darat maupun laut..lebih baik kita saling mengisi dg indonesia membantu permintaan pemerintahan malasyia dan singapore atas pengadaan alat tempur..apalagi malaysia dan singapore telah menjadi pelanggan setia PT.pindad dan PT.DI..itu kan tidak hanya menguntungkan indonesia tp juga ketiga negara..dan seharusnya sebagai negara besar,indonesia harus bisa memberikan contoh yg baik dan melindungi negara2 kecil disekitarnya..saya yakin kalaupun berperang..indonesia pasti lebih unggul apalagi ndonesia sekarang ini telah dilengkapi dg roket kendali jarak jauh buatan LAPAN yg ditransisi menjadi alat pertahanan ( yg sebelumnya untuk pengiriman satelit oleh indonesia) ditambah dg pembangunan nuklir dibangka belitung dg tiga lokasi reaktor nuklir tuk riset yg sudah ada pada tahun 1965 yakni triga mark II di bandung, jogja dan serpong dan pemanfaatan tuk masyarakat baru dimulai tahun 2018 dg 7 reaktor nuklir karena membutuhkan syarat detil yg harus dilakukan secara bertahap. namun, alangkah lebih baik jika indonesia dg kelebihannya menjaga perdamaian dan melindungi negara2 tetangganya seperti malaysia dan singapore..dan sebaliknya..malaysia dan singapore harus respect dan berjanji tidak menyakiti TKI dsna..coba fikir andaikan TKI tidak ada..siaPA yg akan membangun malaysia dan singapore..itu semua berkat TKI dan insinyur serta guru2 besar indonesia yg mengajar di malaysia dan singapore..jadi kita saling mendukung lah..tak perlu ribut macam nie..betul gk?? betul,betul,betul :>
why so scared of Singapore’s Leopards? The real threat of Singapore Armed Forces (Angkatan Bersenjata Singapura) is Airborne and Naval in nature. In a few years time, they will acquire the F-35s (5th gen fighters). The only nation in the Asean to have one. That is a game changer. Their Navy has the La Fayette stealth frigates, the most advanced warships in the region. But NS (Nation Service) Army “spoiled brats” reservists not much of a threat. take away their iphones and they will cry like babies.
Taking a MBT head-on with very paper-thin armour wouldn’t do much if you would use such light vehicle, our country may look up to our strong navy with amazing capabilitys. But we can’t rely only on the navy single handedly, we do know the problems that we would get for such heavy MBT’s. We should have a vehicle that can operate this role too.
We do face certain thereats but the chances are quite small, but when it gets real…we would need much needed MBT to spear-head our attacks but the roads maybe a problem as we may have many of our MBTs stuck on mud, that’s why we would need to do a little experiments on our own.
We need a light, reliable, and well armed tank to do this. We could make a lighter version of a MBT or fuse parts all together in order for a vehicle to do this role, if we want to do such development, we would need the technology for it.
Our infantry prove useful on supressing an enemy MBT with numbers, strategy, and cover. Soldiers have much more effectiveness on taking a un-escorted MBT on patrol.
But in this case we should look on a MBTs weakness, they would be more mud-stuck prone and their turrent would be hard to adjust on a target with very high mobility. Light MBTs are useful on these threats as it can take 2 light MBT to destroy a sigle MBT with one getting its attention and one blowing its engine up from behind.
But we still need to have this technology because MBT’s aren’t just going to battle alone
indonesia need such as leopard 2 mbt or leclerc mbt, about 70-80 units although it comes gradually while the amx 13 light tank will be decommissioned completely
@haze 1 mbt can only faced by 3-4 light tanks, while using light tanks would be far more risky for personnel
Have malaysia,singapore,indonesia ever did invade or conquer each other,no who did? It was the west,the brit,the dutch n so on .